At this point there was unexpected help from God. I had never dreamed of finding a living Master. In western countries the Christian people believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and that no one has come since Him. Similarly, the Sikh people have the conviction that Guru Nanak is the only begotten Son of God and we can still find everything from Him; there is no need of a physical Master. To have a physical Master is considered heresy.

So I was working 100 per cent with this conviction, but God showed all and I was led to see my Master, Sant Kirpal Singh .Yet I only accepted Him after much struggling. It was not easy. I was initiated for three months before telling anyone, and I went on questioning within to confirm for myself if this experience was real or only a delusion.

After three months there was satisfaction that this was real. I continued to work with my Master, and found perfection in this. Then I was given this mission by Him: to carry on and share this help with other needy souls. It is by His orders and by the will of God that I am going on. These are His powers that are working; I am only being only as an instrument.

Question: You teach many people. What kind of teacher-student relationship do you have with those who come to you?

Thakar Singh: Man cannot be the teacher of soul. Man can teach only man, body to body. The only teacher of soul is God. We are not only bodies, we are souls. We are to be taught as soul so we may know the knowledge which is required by soul, which is what the Kingdom of God is; what God is; what soul is; where it has come from and what God is; what soul is; where it has come from and what its relation to the Kingdom of God and to this world is. All this knowledge cannot be had from man or from education of this world.

The teacher of soul is God. He is our Father; He has produced us and we are from Him. So all knowledge, wisdom, peace, help, light, all life and food we enjoy from Him. Lord Christ said “ I am the bread of Life; I am the water of Life’ eat Me and drink Me.” He also said: “I am the Life and I am the Way,” meaning that all teachings come only from God.

The first thing to happen towards this is that we are admitted into the Kingdom of God. There, God Himself is the teacher. He teaches all about His own knowledge, which is complete knowledge. You are not to depend upon the physical form of the Master because it is the God in Him that is working and which connects your soul to God within you. Your education starts through the soul from God directly. This connection takes place in meditation. You rise out of the body into the Kingdom of God, and the education begins. As long as we are inside we will be educated.

Our teacher is God; He is already in us. We are not to be dependent upon any other thing. We are to become complete from within our own selves.

Question: To which religion do your teachings belong?

Thakar Singh: The Saints who come from God convey messages only from God. These messages are designed by God, and may be called the universal religion. When these Saints appear in different countries in various ages, They may give some outer rituals according to what is best suited for those areas. There are differences in the outward rituals of the existing religions. According to the situation, the outer, social part of any religion may have a special ritual, but every religion has the same meaning: basic union of the soul with God.

Lord Christ was asked what great commandments He had brought from God. He said “Love thy Father God with all thy soul, with all thy heart, with all thy mind, and with all thy strength, “ and the second commandment: “Love thy neighbor as thyself and love thine enemies.” He explained that on these two commandments hang the teachings of all the law and prophets. This is the way of love, which is the true religion.

From the tenth Guru of Sikhs it was asked: What is the way to find God? He said “Learn to love. This is the only true religion: to love God and after having been filled with the love of God, then to love thy enemies and thy neighbors.” This is the basic religion, which I am preaching.

Question: What if one jumps from one religion to another?

Thakar Singh: Don’t jump into religions! I do not believe in that. There is only one religion: God and His son and all this creation. The two great commandments given by Lord Christ and all (genuine) Masters teach this religion; to love our Father God, and to love humanity. I do not believe in any religions which are a source of troubles and quarrels, wars and barriers, and which are contrary to this law.

Question: What is the difference between the normal Christian religions, what they offer, and that which you offer?

Thakar Singh: There is no “religion.” Religion is there to know the truth, which is always one. Truth cannot be two. Only that religion which gives truth can really be called a religion. There is only one religion. It may be called Christianity or Hinduism, it may be called anything. I have tried to tell you of this Reality, and this Reality is to be verified by you. Other wise any religion, anything that professes any theory or dogma, is only theory and philosophy until we have verified for ourselves that it is true. If one man says there is a donkey standing outside, another man says that it is a horse, and I say it is an elephant; there cannot be three truths. Only one thing may be there. You may go there and see for yourself. Only then can that truth be verified.

I have told you about the Life, which is in Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc., and that truth which exists in all of you, even in myself. I have verified this for myself and from myself. You may also verify this and then you may admit it.

Question: Do you support the idea of giving up one’s autonomy or individuality voluntarily and following a guru blindly?

Thakar Singh: The people who are connected with me already know very well that I always declared “Don’t believe what I say, only believe when you find the truth of what I say.”

If you follow blindly there is a 99% chance that you may be lead astray because you have only blind faith, which leads to blindness. I have not followed it myself and I will not ask anyone else to follow in this way. I do not make followers but look to everyone as my brothers and sisters. I respect them; they may or may not respect me. I serve them; they may or may not serve me. At least we may live together in harmony and in faith of God, and we may enjoy the blessings of Him. I am not in need of any money. I live on my own retirement pension. I have no children, no brothers or sisters. I may die tomorrow and where will my wealth be? It will be among my children, the spiritual children, the children of God. I give myself in all service to His children, to the children of God. All this I do for Him that I may be valued in Him, and that my services may be valued in Him.

Question: I know that you take no donations for your discourses. Is there a reason for this? How does the organization that you work with (Kirpal Light Satsang, inc.) function monetarily?

Thakar Singh: You see, my Master said that what we are giving is priceless. Nobody can pay for it. If nobody can pay for it, then how is it to be given? It is given freely. We cannot undervalue it.

This is a free gift from God, so we are also giving it freely. After the people feel that they have benefited from these teachings, they are ready to devote everything. But we receive very little. A small percentage is accepted so that our organizational expenses are met, and its services may flourish. So donations are accepted, but in love and devotion and up to a certain extent, and only from initiates who feel like giving. We do not ask for anything. You can be an initiate all of your life and never give a penny. No one is going to say anything to you. I do not raise bank balances.

Question: It is interesting that you quote quite a lot from Jesus and the Bible in your talks.

Thakar Singh: It is because the people over here understand the Bible. In India I also speak form the Bible, but only sometimes. Otherwise I speak from the Vedas and Adi Granth, from the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, and the Bhagvad Gita, which the people there understand.

Question: The Christians say that Jesus had a special position and that He was higher than all the prophets.

Thakar Singh: In the Bible, it is written that when John the Baptist baptized Jesus, the Spirit of God came and John the Baptist witnessed,  “I saw that it came like a dove.” It was the pure receptive human body of Jesus Christ, which was selected by that God power, Christ power, to work through. This is important; this is the work of God. As He has Himself said, “It is not I, but my Father who is working in Me.” This God power, Christ power, Master power, goes on working in different poles, and not only in one country, but in different countries, at different times.

As Guru Nanak claimed, “ I am one with my Father.” Guru Gobind also said: “I am the begotten Son of Lord God.” Many other Saints have said this. I think the Christians have not read all the other scriptures. They are not wrong in saying that Christ was the only begotten Son of Lord God, but as He Himself has said: “As long as I am in the world, I am the Light of the world.” He was the Light of life as long as He was in the world.

Question: I believe that from your point of view, it may look like everything is the same, and that all Saints are the same. But this is not acceptable for a Christian. Jesus Christ is unique to the world, and in fact He is the only savior for the whole world.

Thakar Singh: The Eastern people read the books of their Adepts, and they accept the things as written there, and do not accept Jesus Christ. Similarly, you have read the scriptures here, and do not accept any others. This is the problem with both sides. What is the solution? To go and see for ourselves what is the reality and only then come to the correct conclusion. You are requested to see, and then believe, because seeing is believing. Then you will wee that all the Saints are there inside, in the Kingdom of God. So I request you to do this, at least.

The Kingdom of God is within us, as we are the temple of God. “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God liveth in you?” And “Forsake the flesh for the Spirit, learn to die so that you may begin to live.” Christianity gives a definite way, a definite method, and instructs: “Enter ye in at the strait gate.” Enter ye, is the advice, is the commandment. “Enter ye in at the strait gate, because strait is the gate and narrow is the way which leadeth unto Life.” These commandments are there.

Who can fulfill these commandments? Only He can fulfill them. He comes in the garb of a man and takes the form of a human body, and He does all the work. Where He is, there you will find these commandments completed.

As long as we do not find this, then we do not find anything. Because He is the commandments. “If you love me, keep my commandments.” If we have not found the palace, how can we say that we have found it, and how can we live in it? If we have not found the Kingdom of God and if we have not found the Light and Sound (Word) of God, then what have we found? Have we found Christianity then, or not?

Question: Tell me more about the inner connection with the Light and Sound of God. What is this meditation?

Thakar Singh: What is meditation? Literally, it means single-minded attention on some object. Whenever we attend to one object that is meditation. What is really meditation is single- minded attention on that highest entity, God, which is to be seen, heard, and enjoyed. In meditation our attention is fixed upon that Source. Our attention can only be attracted by something, which is available, very sweet, and valuable. The inner music of God contains all bliss, harmony, and peace. In it we find the only everlasting enjoyment.

Question: Does the knowledge and practice of this meditation make one a member of your group? How does one learn this meditation technique? Is that Initiation?

Thakar Singh: Initiation does not mean membership in any movement or any society. It is a rejoining, a finding of personal connection with God, a baptism. It does not mean you are bound to any teacher. You may just go on independently developing your relationship with God. The Master is there to help and serve you if you wish. The real teacher is God within. For initiation, you are required to be strictly vegetarian; not to eat meat, fish, fowl or eggs; and to discontinue use of any intoxicating liquors and intoxicating drugs. Smoking is also prohibited. These are the only prerequisites and these are not harsh. We should live an ethical and pure life.

Question: Is there anything else you wanted to share with our readers?

Thakar Singh: I want real knowledge to be given to the people. This information is not limited to any religion. It is a universal religion, the religion of love and service, and is acceptable to everyone. No one can say that my instructions are contrary to any religion or to any human being, because these are universal teachings. This is from God. It is clear, and does not have any label on it or any artificial color in it.

I find there is so much negativity in the world, taking us to the depths. There is no one in a position to stop it. There is no government there to check it and only the money- makers are flourishing.

The young people are being spoiled with all these drugs and sexuality. Bad things are going on in the schools and colleges, and all the movies and TV shows only help to spread the problem. Even when the stations no longer earn so much money, they still consider themselves successful because their circulation is increasing. Their success is only based on this. They do not know that true success is based only on benefit, which is given to the people; to what extent you have helped to raise the true standard of living and how much you have raised people in love and service to each other. This is a basic necessity, and the greatest service, which we can do for humanity.

Question: Sant Thakar Singh is referred to by followers of His teachings as “Master of holy Sound Current, the immutable Word of God.” That sounds a bit as if you are a God?

Thakar Singh: Everyone is God. In Genesis it has been explained very clearly: “God made man in His own image, in His own image made He him; male and female created He them.” This clearly shows man was made by God. The male and female vestures were added later.

Question: So you have the feeling that everyone has a little bit of God in him. Is that it?

Thakar Singh: Not a little bit; full God!

Question: Full of God! Let’s go back some 57 years. You were born in a small village in the Punjab, India. You went to school as millions of other young children do around the world. You became a civil engineer, and later retired. How do you become the “Word of God”, the Master of the science of Sant Mat?

Thakar Singh: If there are two or three persons living in a house, one may be an engineer, one may be a doctor, and the other may be a lawyer. My body was working as an engineer and my soul was Son of God, Who is there in all of us. “Know ye not that ye are the temple of the living God, and that the Spirit of God liveth in you?” When my body was 10 or 15 years of age, my soul was handed over to God to be taught by Him to become God. This life of becoming God through soul was continued side by side. Everyone has these two lives: one is the physical life, which is to be born, to live, and to end – as it is written in the holy Bible, “The flower bloometh and the grass fadeth, but the Word of God liveth forever”; the other life is that everlasting life which is to exist for eternity in Godhood – “I and my Father are one.”

Question: You were born a Sikh, a member of the Hindu faith. Do you still practice your Hindu faith?

Thakar Singh: No. It is not that one should practice Hinduism, or Sikhism, or Mohammedanism, or Christianity. These are only the outer customs or rituals, which have been adopted according to the age and necessity of the time from the originators of these religions. Real religion is one. That is given in the holy Bible: “What great commandment have you got from God?” The Master told, “Love thy Father God with all thy soul, with all thy heart, with all thy mind. And love thy neighbor as thyself. And love thine enemies.” This is the real religion I could find in Hinduism, Sikhism, Christianity, and in all faiths. If the people have forgotten it, I am trying to reconnect them all with this one religion. “On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

Question: I notice here on the flyer for your appearances in Rochester today: “Learn the teachings of Sant Mat, the way of the Saints, as taught by Lord Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, and all the past Masters.”

Thakar Singh: Yes.

Question: It sounds as if this is an all – embracing science?

Thakar Singh: Yes. As long as those practical adepts had been there, they could understand the basic teaching, and preached it. Afterwards the people only got acquainted with the outer shell and lost contact with the inner kernel.

Question: I see. One of the suspicions many people may have about folks like you, ever since the days of Jim Jones and the disaster with all those people in Guyana in South America, is that this is another person who is trying to lead people astray and trying to make a buck while doing it.

Thakar Singh: I am not creating anything. When Columbus discovered America it already existed. That man did not invent it. I am not giving any thing from my own invention, but am connecting the soul with God at the third eye center.

Question: Do you make any money doing this, sir?

Thakar Singh: It is not my purpose. I have more than sufficient to live on from my own retirement pension.

Question: From your civil engineering pension?

Thakar Singh: I am retire now and receive my pension from the Indian Government.

Question: I understand that you never take a donation for any of your services?

Thakar Singh: I don’t need it. Why should I get it?

Question: How do you live as travel around this country or the world? This is your fifth world tour.

Thakar Singh: I am not a rich man that can accommodate all these expenses in the foreign countries. My friends who love me and love this work, they arrange.

Question: They arrange. You stay in their homes; you share their table.

Thakar Singh: Yes, but when I go back to India, I will go in the same way as I have come.

Question: That brings up an interesting question when you mentioned the word “love.” As you look around the world, after two world wars, with all the terrorism that’s taking place, with all of the inhumanity of man towards man, is love at the heart of the universe?

Thakar Singh: This is the great question. If we have come in this world, the only subject of man is to find love. Otherwise, there is no purpose of being in this world.

Question: You say man is God, though?

Thakar Singh: Yes, when he develops love in himself, then that is God. In the Bible it has been explained, “We have known and believed the love Father God has for us, because God is love. And he who dwells in love, dwells in God, and God in him.”

Question: How do you explain then these terrible things that men do to one another?

Thakar Singh: This is due to disconnection from God. We are absent from God and are taken up by the devil.

Question: So man is also the devil?

Thakar Singh: Instigated by devil, he becomes a follower of devil, and then naturally he is a devil. But when he will again come to God and will follow God, then he’s God.

Question: That sounds like man can be anything he wants to be? And at any given time?

Thakar Singh: Yes, that is there. It is the arrangement of this world, that the negative power is automatically dominating and, if not cared after properly by the Saints and Masters, man becomes follower of the devilish instinct. Man is not to follow the worldly life but to follow the Saints and the Masters.

Question: What is it you try to do instill in human beings a belief that they can be God, that they can be love?

Thakar Singh: I directly connect the people to the God in themselves. Their souls are down in this physical body. At the time of Initiation, the soul is brought up and connected with God. Here (the third eye center) is the lowest link of the Kingdom of God. This upper part (above the third eye center) is interpenetrated by the Kingdom of God. God is also there in His lowest links. The soul is connected with God and Kingdom of God, and is handed over to Him. He then teaches the lesson of love bestows all His powers and all His blessings. As long as the man lives over here (at third eye center), he will live in God, in God’s love, and in God’s blessings. It has been explained in the Bible: “To him who overcomes, I will give him the power to rule over the nations.” First He will fill him with His love and with that love He will also give His powers.

Question: Thank you for this. We wish you well on your tour, sir.

Thakar Singh: I am also thankful for your cooperation.

Question: Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to be with you.

Thakar Singh: I also feel privileged to have an opportunity to talk to my dear brothers and sisters.

Question: I hope you will bear with me while I ask questions that may be very obvious and in the books, but I want to hear your own words with your own energy.

It seems that to follow the Path of Sant Mat a perfect Master is completely essential. Is Sant Mat the only Path for anyone? If someone is not initiated by a living perfect Master, does that mean he’s doomed or will never reach the higher regions?

Thakar Singh: You see, God has prepared everything in His own perfect way. For light, He has given the sun. And for taking birth of a child there is the mother and the care of the parents. Similarly, the Pathway to God, and for salvation, is only through the competent Master.

Regarding the Path, which you have called Sant Mat, the scriptures tell that the Saints go directly to God, and find God, and after having experienced God themselves, then They tell the truth from Their own experience. They do not relay second – hand information. This information is not Their own, but They give out the understanding and the reality They have received from God. They tell Their own personal experiences to those people who have not yet found the reality. And They also want everyone else to have it.

Question: “There’s always a living Master present, at all times.” Does that mean that there’s only one living Master at one time, or can there be several Masters at the same time?

Thakar Singh: The general rule has been that there is one, but sometimes there had been more than one. God cannot be limited under any rule. As He feels fit, He may arrange.

Question: As you are well aware, there are some people saying that they initiate into the Sound Current. At this time is there more than one living Master?

Thakar Singh:  Maybe. As I have said, more than one Master can also be there.

This process of the Sound Current is the real way, the shortest and easiest. Flying on the wings of the Sound, we can reach back to God.

Question: Sant Mat solves the mystery of death. Could you explain a little bit about how we can’t escape from dying, but we can escape the fear of death?

Thakar Singh: First we will have to know what it is to die and what is immortal. Our Self as soul is immortal. This body, which is not our Self but our garment, this only is subject to death. When we come to know and begin to live as soul, then naturally the problem of death is solved. As long as we recognize ourselves as body, we will not be out of the fear of death. When we will see, we will know we are immortal, and then fear of death will be no more.

Question: Could you explain what soul is, or define it for someone who is not on the Path? For someone who was reading an interview, what information would you want them to have about the soul?

Thakar Singh: That is why I am stressing, as all Masters had stressed, not any path, but only Truth, and Truth is one. What is that Truth? That we are souls and our relation is directly with God, Who is immortal, and we are immortal.

To realize ourselves as soul is the work of a competent Master, Who can take out the soul from the body and make it exist in its own Self. There it may find its own glory, own life impulse, and then may also find God.

Question: Is soul a spark of the Divine or is it a region? How does one know when they are aware of their soul? Is it just a state of joy?

Thakar Singh: Soul is of the same essence as that of God. God is all life, form eternity till eternity, all light, wisdom, competency, enjoyment, and full of all blessings and grace. The highest kinds of attributes available are in God. There are attributes we do not even know exist which we find when we go to Him. Soul is of the same essence. It is only a difference of size. He is the ocean, and this is the drop. But character and constitution is the same. We are really wonderful in ourselves but we have not been able as yet to recognize ourselves as soul. This is to be known by everybody, as the facility and provisions have been given to everyone.

Question: You’ve mentioned the term oversoul. Could you explain what that is?

Thakar Singh: That is God. I have called Him oversoul, that we may feel connected with Him. We are soul and He is oversoul. There is not a very great valley between us.

Question: The question of vegetarianism: I’ve heard different points of view. I myself am a vegetarian, so it’s not a problem for me, but some other people say that if I didn’t kill the animal that I am eating, then I don’t have any karma, so I can eat it. Or that a Master will often ask His initiates to become vegetarian to lighten His work load. Is any of that true?

Thakar Singh: There are so many explanations with which we can advocate really, and with justification, that for man, meat is not food. But this is especially true when we are to go along with the Path of the life of soul. Then we will have to prepare our body as a vehicle, good vehicle, for the journey of soul. Life of soul is very, very conscious; it is superconsciousness. The body is inert material. But god has made this material very refined. The human body is not really particles of dust, it is refined.

The first refinement is that the tree is grown from earth. The second refinement is that the fruit comes from the tree. The third refinement is that the fruit goes into our body. Later, surplus material is disposed of, and the final material is used by the body. The body is constructed so that soul can assimilate it and can accept it for working. But when soul has to work for that higher cause, then still more refinement will have to be done. Those people who are initiated find that there are waves in the body; sensations are going on in the body, which is the replacement of coarser particles of the body by finer particles.

How can we help this system, if we take much coarser particles of animals and put them in our body? It is a contradiction to our Path of spiritual life.

Question: For one who is not initiated, until they’re eventually initiated, what can you suggest they do to get above body consciousness?

Thakar Singh: They cannot come above body consciousness. And if they come, they will put themselves in more danger than if they stay in the body. As children, it is not so good to live in our own home if the parents are not available. But it is even more dangerous to go out of the house without our parents. When God comes and takes us out of the body, He will take us to His house. If we come out of the body, then negative power will be there and will catch hold of us and will deal very terribly with us.

Question: Then one should have pure thoughts and sweet deeds?

Thakar Singh: Yes.

Question: And be of service and love God and all of creation until one finds a perfect Master?

Thakar Singh: That is why it is always recommended, “Sit with some good person.” In the Bible, it has been given that “A good man out of his treasures gives out what is good. An evil person gives out, out of his evil treasures, what is evil. “So, if we do not find a Saint or a Master, at least we should find some good person. From every good person, we will find something better.

Question: Part of the Path involves maintaining the diary. There’s a lot of self – analysis. Would you suggest the same process to someone who is not an initiate, to keep a diary?

Thakar Singh: Yes, it is for all. We may analyze our life and may know what is the condition of our actions. Then we may be able to improve our life.

Question: In ‘The Ways of Saints’ by Kirpal Singh, in the beginning I saw something I didn’t quite understand. Were there no living Masters before Kabir in the 15^th century, or is that just when Sant Mat, under the form Sant Mat, started?

Thakar Singh: Sant Mat is not something new. My Master also explained that the Path has been same always. But the people had forgotten it. The Masters have always been coming to make it available to the people. But the people began to feel that this Master has started it, or that Master has started it, because the previous teachings of the previous Masters they had forgotten. If they had known, then they would not have said that. Otherwise, there was a chain, and it is continuing. It was before Kabir and is after Kabir.

Question: What could an initiate expect as a final goal in this life? What is the destination while he’s still in the physical body?

Thakar Singh: You can imagine that if the child is lost and then comes home, it is really satisfied. Then he has no worries, no problems, and is finding all love and service. We can also well imagine that even if we may be with our good friends, or relatives or in our home, this is also a worry. If we come home, home will also give its own kinds of worries. If we go out, the outside also has its own kinds of worries. But when we will really go to our own Home, Home of the soul, then there will be no worry. All satisfaction and perfection is there. If it is found, we are totally satisfied.

Question: Somewhere I heard that if one is initiated, one has the opportunity to reach one’s final home in not more than four lifetimes. Is this true?

Thakar Singh: That is not necessary. Generally, the people who are initiated are to be taken back in the same life.

Question: In the teachings, it talks about not injuring anyone’s feelings. And in today’s society, some awareness teachings teach one to be honest and to share themselves with others and not to withhold information, and in the process of being honest with another person their feelings might get hurt. And yet, some say that you really can’t hurt anybody’s feelings because they hurt their own feelings, they create their own hurt. Is that consistent with your point of view?

Thakar Singh: You have to judge in your own self whether you really are hurting the feelings of another. If a child wants to catch the flame of a candle, are you really hurting the feelings of the child if you do not allow him to do this? It is not hurting his feelings, because if he touches the flame he will suffer.

We are not to go blindly in this respect. We should know the consequences, the basic truth. Then we will be helping the other person. Really we are helping him. In this way, the things will go in a positive direction.

Question: Forgiveness is mentioned as one of the greatest virtues, and other people say, well you have to forgive yourself because the self is one in a condition to judge. Instead of forgiving somebody else, should one first forgive oneself?

Thakar Singh: Forgiveness of self is not really possible, because somebody is to forgive us. Otherwise everyone forgives himself. One never feels like he should be punished. But somebody who’s controlling us, he should be forgiving to us so that we may really be forgiven. When we have put ourselves before some cruel one, we will never expect forgiveness. From our Father we naturally expect forgiveness. Therefore, only for forgiveness we have to come out of the clutches of negative power and to be dealt with by our Father God. That is the main necessity.

Question: As a Master, by continuing to have more initiates all the time, does that restrict you in terms of your time, do you have to spend more time in meditation as you have more initiates to work with?

Thakar Singh: The power of Master is unlimited. Even if all the population of the world comes for Initiation, He is competent to initiate them and He can put the situation in His control.

Question: Even though the physical form of the Master is not present, it’s always there inwardly. Is it through a process of thought transference or intuition that the Master knows the initiate’s needs? Is there no limitation of time and distance? Is it just a matter of thought?

Thakar Singh:  Yes, it is correct that time and space has nothing to do with or cannot interfere in the working of the Master. Once a person is initiated through a competent Master, the Radiant Form of the Master is embedded with the soul of the initiate. That is a personal responsibility of the Master. For 24 hours a day, there is a regular watch and protection given to the soul until it reaches God.

Question: In the literature I’ve seen something referred to as the fifth heaven. What is that? Is that the soul?

Thakar Singh: This journey of the soul towards God is divided in to five regions. The final region is the fifth one, where God is in His highest form. We meet God there. That is called the fifth region or fifth heaven.

Question: And in each region there’s a Lord for each region?

Thakar Singh: Yes, there are, under the control of God. The lower powers are also working in their own regions.

Question: So Kal is the Lord of this negative realm. Could you talk a little bit about the various Lords on the way to the fifth region?

Thakar Singh: The Lord of the fifth region is God, and the Lords of all the five regions are told to the initiates at the time of initiation.

Question: I don’t know if on this particular Path people release a lot of negativity or emotions, or go through difficult experiences in meditation, or get information inwardly that may not be accurate. What does one do?

Thakar Singh: This meditation is really the work of God. What is our purpose in life? We are to start with the journey for which we are meditating. First we have to make clear our destination. Meditation is not only for its own sake. We are to meditate for finding God. Then we are to do that kind of meditation, which will take us to God. And that can be understood from a person who has found God. Naturally if I plan to go to some city, if you also plan to go to that city, you will ask me “How do I get there?” Then I will give you the route. So we will have to make a goal, and then go with that person who travels there, and then we will really find the way.

Meditation is a simple thing. What is the definition of meditation? It is single – minded attention on any object, as I am meditation upon you now and you are meditating upon me. And what is the effect of meditation? As you think, so you become. Whatever you are attending to, may be by thought, may be by thought combined with presence (because thought is always there), then naturally I will tend to become you and you will tend to become me. This is the way the meditations work. So if we think of something other than God in meditations, then that will not be meditation on God, that will be meditation on some other object which will take us to negative side. If we meditate on God, we will find God.

Question: How can people who are not initiated best serve humanity? Many people have resources but prefer to work independently. For example, there are some wealthy people who want to do philanthropic work. If a very wealthy man came to you saying, “I have a million dollars for service, to help others,” what would be the best way for him to use his money?

Thakar Singh: We have in this world two kinds of service. One service is to the Self, soul, which is really the highest kind of service. The second service is to our vehicle, body. Both are important; we cannot neglect the body, but we can never neglect soul. Any service to the body, if not accompanied by service to the soul, is of no use.

Master carry on with both kinds of services. Here in western countries, there is not very much need of physical services. But in other countries, like India, I have seen that really the people need these very much. Orphaned children in India have no arrangement from the government or any other organization. The old people who are diseased are also neglected, and they are suffering. So we have opened about five centers for these reasons, which are called “Man Service Centers,” and they are working in different parts of India. Free food is given over there, old people are accommodated, and schools are also open for any children. Handicapped persons are also admitted. These are flourishing in India and may be, according to need, in western countries even. Services at all levels are done through the Masters.

Question: Are these Man Service Cenetrs currently financed through the initiates that give money? How do these centers support themselves?

Thakar Singh: Yes, we have never demanded money from anyone, but as per arrangement of God it comes through initiates. But for Man Service Centers, other people are also using them, and we have allowed other people to also give for these.

Question: It’s mentioned about marriage that it’s not for sexuality but for friendship. Divorces seem to be on the increase, at least in this society. What suggestions can you offer to people that are married to improve their marriages?

Thakar Singh: It is not only the question of divorce. Divorce starts two or three years before the actual divorce (which we call paper divorce). When we really accept each other from the heart, then there is a marriage. When we have some difficulty with each other, then really we have divorced each other. It may be that we are keeping connected physically in a very uneasy atmosphere, but from heart we have already divorced each other. But we are to learn the lesson of love. Lord Christ has told the two greatest commandments from God: “Lover thy Father God with all thy soul, with all thy heart, with all thy mind.” And then, “Love thy neighbor as thyself, and love thy enemies.”

Why can we not love each other as husband and wife and also as brother and sister? The only difficulty is that we have lost connection with our Source of love. Oceans and oceans of love are lying dormant in us, untouched. If these are awakened, we will be full of love and we will fill everyone with love and everyone will be able to work in love. This is the gospel of love, which we are to propagate.

Question: It has been said that self – love has to be overcome. But then again others say that you have to love yourself first before you can love someone else.

Thakar Singh: When you begin to love yourself, soul, then you will be connected with God and filled with love from God. From that big Source you will be able to love yourself and love others even; you will have an atmosphere of love from your own Self, from which others will also find radiation.

Question: Our society seems to want to knock anything off a pedestal. Whenever something’s put on a pedestal, most people in the United States just like to knock it off. How can people work with their egos in that type of situation?

Thakar Singh: Yes, the difficulty is that the people who become great are not really great, because they are great for their own selves. If they are great for the world, then they will be accepted.

If there is a small hut of a person and nearby there is a very big palace of a rich  person, some of the poor man’s friends may come and say, “There is a very rich person by your side.”

 He will reply,” No, he is not a rich person. He is poor, totally poor.”

“How can you say he is poor?”

“Because if a dog comes, there is access to my house. It gets some food from me. But the dog cannot even enter into the rich man’s house. So who is rich and who is poor?”

We are to be rich, but not for ourselves. We are to be rich for other people, that other people may be benefited. Then there will be no struggle. In love, we may serve one another.

Question: I had just one more last question. A lot of people are concerned with health, holistic health, and things like that. How would you define health for this level?

Thakar Singh: The main difficulty is the mind. When the mind begins to work in some direction, its waves are running in the body. Sometimes a man is totally startled and puzzled and frightened, as when suddenly a snake comes, and he cannot even run away from the snake. He is just shocked. Such situations show that mental nervousness fully controls the body. If we harmonize our mind, then there will be very little disease. Disharmony of mind goes into body and disharmonizes the body system. Those bad actions, which we had done, the disharmonious vibrations, which had been emitted by those persons whom we have hurt, are converging on us. Nothing dies and nothing can die.

Body is only dependent upon the mental system and our own vibrations. If we harmonize our mental system with the help of soul with God, that is the perfect solution. Otherwise, these medicines etc., they can do only a little something. They mainly give satisfaction of mind.

Question: I want to thank you for your time. And God bless you.

Thakar Singh: All right, if this information can help some people, I am pleased to be of use.

Question: Would you describe your teachings? Can you just explain to those in the audience who may have seen a Master from India, but have never really met one personally, can you share with the audience what it is that you want to give to people?

Thakar Singh: These teachings are not connected with any religion, any faith, sect, or thought. They are connected with reality, which is from the beginning and will remain eternal. What is reality? It is God, the Kingdom of God and our own Self, which is fitted in this human body. This human body is a house in which we are living as soul, and in which our God with all His Kingdom is living. From our lower outer self, this physical body, we are to come into contact with our higher Self. The reason why we could not come in contact with that higher Self is because we are as soul are down in the human body, and are only up to the eye level. We are only concerned with the animal kingdom. As animals see the sun, moon, stars, sky, flowers, all this growth, etc., we are also working in the same way.

Question: So, Thakar, what you are saying is that most of us are coming more from our animal nature and we don’t allow ourselves to get in touch with the God nature.

Thakar Singh: From our birth we are shown how to work in this animal kingdom with our physical body, which also belongs to the animal kingdom. But we are to grow as soul to be in the Kingdom of God and to be with God, so that we come into contact with our higher Self and then lead the higher great life, which is of perfection like that of God.

Question: Thakar, this is a question that I have as an American. Being raised here, I was born a Catholic and left that religion around the age of 18. Why is it that here in America our religious teachers don’t teach us things like that? That’s the first question I would have!

Thakar Singh: I am sorry to say that in the East also, the people do not teach this reality. You’ll find the same thing all over the world.

Question: Why don’t priests and ministers know about this?

Thakar Singh:  They have not gone inside; they have not started to work with soul. This is the subject of soul, to know about God and to find God, and to know about the Kingdom of God and to find the Kingdom of God. This is no subject of body, mind, and intellect.

Question: Please explain to those in the audience who may not understand the relationship between a Master and disciple; just what is that?

Thakar Singh: It is like a father and child. The father is helping the child to grow as best as possible. He also provides the child with every kind of education, and works with the child so that the young one may some day take over the father’s business.

is the work of the Master. He is one with God. He is enjoying the Kingdom of God and wants to raise all the souls to also become one with God and to enjoy the Kingdom of God as He Himself is.

Question: Explain what it means when you say you can actually awaken God within an initiate, the connection with God. In other words, somehow you’re able to reconnect a person with their God power?

Thakar Singh: This can be answered by using an example. There is a blind person who goes to a doctor for an operation. The film (cataract), which was blinding his eyesight, is removed, and he then can see and can find all the sun, moon, stars, everything of this world.

In the same way there is a curtain of negativity between God and us. The Godman removes that curtain and makes the soul look up, instead of down. He then shows us the Kingdom of God, Light of God, and all music, blessings, grace, and all the wonderful existence over there. The people look, enjoy, and also hear.

Question: One of the purposes of this television program is to assist ourselves in growing more in love, and I know that is one of your primary missions. How do we reconnect ourselves, or how do we allow that love energy or love within jus to come forward? Can you talk a little about that?

Thakar Singh: Yes, that is the problem; who is to teach us love? The answer is, He Who is love in Himself. If we go to a jewelry shop, we cannot find groceries. If we have a yearning for love, we should go to God. Only He has this Source. In the Bible it is written: “We have known and believed the love Father God has for us because God is love, and he who dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.”

In my talks I have told that there is a killer of love, and that is all this material stuff, which is the source of confusion and struggle among us. This cannot be love. If we are given all these treasures and supplies from God along with real love, then we will be able to love and we will serve each other in love.

Question: How does this happen on a practical level? In one of your books you explained as we meditate on a longer basis, more negativity may come up within us. Can you explain how? One of the questions I have is if we are feeling a lot of love – I know I can be feeling that I’m centered and that I have a lot of love coming from me – and then someone will do something on the road, maybe someone will cross in front of me, and all of a sudden I’ll start yelling and screaming. How do we achieve that inner peace and inner harmony so we don’t go into the anger?

Thakar Singh: You are to develop inner strength. If someone else is stronger than you, he will be able to impress upon you his own things. But if you become stronger than the other one, you will be able to impress your own self upon the other one. You are to grow more and more strong and blessed in the love of God so that the disturbing power, which is called negativity, may not be able to put its own impression upon you. Your godly impression of love will be stronger on the other person.

Question: You’re saying that we actually can grow in this love and it does something to us internally?

Thakar Singh: Yes, it changes our mind and changes our heart and makes them full of love and peace. Then the disturbances of other people will not be able to touch us, but our positive peace and love will be effective upon the others.

Question: I also was intrigued by your statement about karma. You explain that through being initiated and opening up to the Master power, we can transcend karma in our lives, and not be affected by it anymore.

Thakar Singh: Yes, we come out of the region of karma. When we rise above, it cannot approach us.

Question: Some of the people in the audience may not know what karma is, because that’s not a word that we use here in America. Would you briefly explain?

Thakar Singh: Karma means action. For everything that you do, a reaction will be there. If you say “Good morning” to someone, he will also say “Good morning.” And if you look a little horribly upon the other one, he will also look upon you in the same way.

Question: And that’s why in our stories, the bad guy always loses, because if you put out bad energy, you will get that in return.

Thakar Singh: Yes, yes. The same is karma.

Question: What you’re saying is that as one opens up to this God – realization, karma is no longer affecting us, is that it?

Thakar Singh: Yes, because the law is “As you sow, so shall you reap”. But when you are blessed by God power, you will not have to reap; all is being forgiven. This is for everyone who transcends this region of action and reaction, which is of the lower law, and then we enter into the higher law of God, which is of forgiveness, mercy and grace.

Question: You speak freely of reincarnation. You say once one reaches that level, there is no more reincarnation?

Thakar Singh: Yes. Then we reach our Father God in our own home. He will never leave us. He says, “I will never leave thee nor forsake thee till the end of the world.” Then there’s no reincarnation. Never will we fall down into this earth plane again.

Question: One of the things that is happening very strongly here in San Diego, and I’m sure across the country, is this whole idea of spiritual healing. Can you explain to us what is spiritual healing?

Thakar Singh: The lower law mandates that “As you sow, so shall you reap”; nothing is free. If we interfere with this law of karma, we will be in trouble. There is one capability with mental powers. They can shift the tenure; if one is to suffer now, one will suffer instead after one year or two years, or a little later on. This is not really a remedy, however it may look like the person has been helped and healed. This is a total misunderstanding. And still there will be punishment because we have interfered with the law. He who interferes with the law is a sinner. The practitioner is to suffer for that, without any special benefit to anyone.

We are to come under the law of mercy and grace of God, and when we reach this higher law, then we are saved. And all others for whom we have a little sympathy and love, and toward whom we feel good, God power will help that person and will burn away all those karmic situations and will shower His blessings. He is all – competent, and it is only with this competency of God that the karmic situations can be dealt with. Otherwise no one else has the authority. The people have a total misunderstanding about spiritual healing. If is not spiritual healing really, it is psychic healing, using mental powers. These create a great difficulty.

Question: You have certain guidelines for Initiation. One of the things you recommend is not to do any pranayama or breathing exercises. That really surprised me. Why is that?

Thakar Singh: Pranayama keeps our attention lower, down to the navel plexus, because this is the range of the breathing system. The people who practice pranayama are asked to attend to the breathing. They exhale for some time, and then inhale and keep that air for some time. Their attention is limited only to this area. We are to go up, our attention is to go higher than the physical level, and so we are not to attend lower. If we attend down, how can we go up? This is a great impediment for our growth into the higher regions. That is the reason why pranayama is not allowed. It has no benefit.

With meditation of inner Light and Sound the breathing automatically slows down. It is only when the mind is disturbed that the breathing is quick. If one is in a rage or fear, one breathes fast. When the mind and body are peaceful and intellect is quit, the breathing automatically adjusts itself and purpose of pranayama is automatically served.

Question: Can anyone do the meditation that you teach? Does one need special guidance?

Thakar Singh: I give the full process. After having full process, which is called Initiation and takes about two and half to three hours, then one is allowed to go along wherever one may. I will travel on, or that person may go away, and we may not even see each other again in this lifetime, but he or she may continue independently. The people receive instructions through a competent Master, they are in danger. Along with full Initiation, full protection of the Master power is also provided to that person.

Question: Sant Thakar, if someone in the audience is saying, Gee, I’d like to be initiated by you, “How do they find where you are, and do you regularly travel throughout the United States?

Thakar Singh: There are people living in the United States who are representatives of our organization. Those persons, who are desirous of finding any information about me, may contact them.

Question: And the name of your group?

Thakar Singh: Kirpal Light Satsang. It has been incorporated in New York. Otherwise I do not give it any name because it is universal truth. I don’t want to confine it in some name.

Question: If someone writes me at my studio address, I could then refer them to your people here in San Diego, and they in turn could tell the person of the different centers. Do you have centers all over the world?

Thakar Singh: Yes.

Question: Someone in our viewing audience may want to know how you can be contacted.

Thakar Singh: Yes, the arrangement is there. I may be in India but the person can be initiated without my physical presence.